November 18, 2005
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Topic 10: What is morality?
An essay by Michael F. Nyiri
This is a topic entry for a discussion on the Socrates Cafe® web ring. More entries pertaining to this question, and also the question of "What is Equality, can be accessed by visiting Simone de Beauvoir. There is also a backlog of previous discussion topics on the site.
Morality is a construct completely formulated by mankind to keep the populace in line. We are not "born" with any sense of moral judgement. "Morals" are merely "laws" that dictate what we are "expected" to do in society in order to be "right" instead of "wrong" and to follow the established status quo, whether it be directed by spiritual or national leaders. Those who do not follow these laws of "morality" are punished.
The animal kingdom, of which man is a part, basically operates on instinct and learned behavior. "Morality" is certainly not an instinct. An animal will "kill" to survive. It may "harm" in order to gain a mate for reproduction. It does not put one belief or construct ahead of any other in it's life of survival. Most animals don't kill thier own species for sport. Each action is dictated by an instinctual "need" to survive. Each link in the chain of life is almost ecologically "preordained". The bigger fish will always eat the smaller fish. No "higher power" or "national conscience" has written any moral laws for use in the animal kingdom, and yet species live, grow, and die off, in a perfectly natural chain of events, throughout time.
Man can communicate and disagree with greater "knowledge" than the average animal, and places himself "above" all other species on the planet. He does have "rules" and "laws", and from the beginning of recorded history, he has fashioned his "moral" sense in order to keep order and maintain large areas of subjugated territory.
From the "Ten Commandments" to the HR Director's "Rules In the Workplace", man has been writing and refining his moral code. True, a spiritual Christian might argue that the "Ten Commandments" were "ordained by God" but there is also a fiery philosophical discourse that has been ongoing for centuries pertaining to said "God's" existence, so we won't delve into that discussion here. The "Ten Commandments" are a moral dictate which is "written". It doesn't matter "who" wrote the document. It has existed for millennia and is used by many men as a ruler to gauge his morality.
Does this mean that mankind is NOT "born" with a "sense" of "good" and "evil"? Yes, man doesn't have a grasp of good and evil in the womb. "Life" is naked. Thought is not. It is clothed with the cloak of scholars and pundits, priests and prophets. As our minds grow with age, we are "taught the difference between good and evil". There can be argument that "everyone knows the difference", but this is just not so. Good and Evil, Right and Wrong are only words in a dictionary. Ideas are constructs that are born of man's thought processes, and with each succeeding generation, these ideas are more ingrained in the consciousness of the "nation". Some nations (or Spiritual congregations, for that matter) practice "evil" in the eyes of another nation, but this "evil" is seen and embraced as a great "good". Morality, to borrow from another old axiom, is in the eye of the beholder.
The "Crusades" have been ongoing for at least as long as the Islamic nation first captured Jerusalem, and wrested it's power from Christian hands. Since then, in the "historical Crusades", and even today in America's "Crusade" in the country of Iraq, the basic "differences" between two ideological trains of thought (or belief) are being fought over with no end in sight. Each "nation" or "belief system" stands for the "right and moral" position. Each person fighting that fight believes he is "right" and the other is "wrong". There seems to no shades of gray in most moral conundrums, and perhaps this is what is wrong with society as a whole.
Perhaps it is the bullheaded belief that one "morality" has to trump all others that is the cause of mankind's slow slide into extinction. One is not "born" into a moral directive. One reads about it or it taught that it exists. Consider the plight of the "suicide bomber". I am sure that most in the "West" would decry a "suicide bomber" as an "evil" that exsits. This is someone who is killing vast numbers of humans, destroying property, eradicating historical sites, etc. etc. etc. There is a long litany of "wrongs" that occur when someone blows himself up along with lots of his neighbors in a crowded restaurant, hotel, or subway. We, in the West, read these reports, see the damage on our television screens and we proclaim that we are better than this. Besides, a lot of religious practices would dictate that self destruction is not a holy action to perform. Catholics will not bury suicides in sanctified ground, for instance. The "suicide bomber" must, to a Western point of view, be completely and morally "evil" and cetainly "wrong" in performing his actions.
In the world of the suicide bomber however, the act he is performing is not only righteous and good, he is guaranteed place in Heaven, and he is doing the greatest service to Allah by fighting the good fight, and destroying the infidel. These are moral directives that have been written in fatwas for thousands of years. To the suicide bomber, the secular destruction of God's earth by hideous infidels is the "evil" which needs to be eradicated.
There are of course "moral" inequalities in like minded societies. How, for example, can a country, like America, which seems to stand on basic Christian religious morals, put people to death with capital punishment? The answer is simple. The federal government has put some "moral directives" in the hands of the state governments, and in the "wild west", of which states like California and Texas are still a part, the law has always favored "an eye for an eye" (a life for a life) type justice. Justice in America is decreed by vote, in large part, but the idea is the same. There is always a "list" or "set of rules" that any nation is to "follow". This set of rules of conduct helps to keep the populace in line. Without them, there would be anarchy and societal breakdown. We can't be trusted with our instincts, these laws would proclaim, or else we would be "simply animals".
Morality does not exist naturally, and only exists because of man's decision to create it.
Comments (128)
Hi Mike! :wave:
You always make my brain hurt... I like that.
Your conclusion is begging me... is insisting that I... ponder further - was man's decision to create morality a moral or an immoral decision? :spinning:
BE blessed!
Steve
Hi Mike,
It's interesting to me to see that your blog on this topic has many parallels to mine. I agreee very strongly that morality exists only within a culture. You cannot gauge the morality of a person or group outside of the culture to which they belong. Even within a large culture, such as the one in the US, there are subgroups with differing moral values. That is the source of a lot of our conflict. I think it is very important to remember that we need to respect most of the moral beliefs of others (I do not feel obligated to accpet the gang value that says that it is OK to kill a member of a rival gang) because when we start to think that we can dictate the moral beliefs of others, we open ourselves up for others to return the favor.
I do not agree that the US is a Christian culture. As a matter of fact, I disagree with that pretty strongly. I think that one of the basic values of our culture is the right to believe as you see fit, including the right not to believe in a higher power. I do accept that the founding fathers accepted the existence of God.
I also would (because of my own religious beliefs, which are cultural) argue the idea that animals do not follow a divinely ordained moral code. As you said, they act on what has to be done to survive. They do not kill their own species for sport. They do not take what they do not need. I do believe that they were created and that they follow the intent of their existence much better than humans do. I think that we could learn a lot from them. I respect your right to think differently.
Some of the biggest messes we create (like the one in Iraq) come from trying to impose our values on a culture we do not understand. I wonder if humans will ever learn to quit doing that?
Nancy
how are thing on the Westside!!!
Ha! I love it.
You have some very good thoughts here! The morality - or lack of it - in the animal kindom that we are (or are not) a part of - this is a very hard rock to trip over - ouch! I need to consider this some more. You might want to read "What Makes Us Moral" by Neil Levy. It's about morality and the animal kindom - including humans.
I agree with you on the point that the U.S. is not a Christian nation. The main group of founding fathers were more Deist than Christian.
This is great, thought-provoking writing!
John
Great post. I enjoyed reading about your thoughts on morality. I agree that man decides what good and evil is. I liked how you talked about the 10 Commandments & the Rules in the Workplace.
Okay, I am new here and it is nice to have you finally in my sub list to read. I have read other things of yours...
I am not so deep a thinker, well yes I am but I do not write well so I cannot write my deep thoughts.
I think we are all born selfish and sinful, some moreso than others. We learn to develop the better virtues. we learn by example, so it is good that we show a good example to others all the time. Some people are still learning even as they are adults.
I enjoyed reading this.
I hope you have a lovely week-end
While I agree with your essay on the whole, I'm not sure I agree with you on distinctions between us and the animal kingdom. A person will kill to survive too. And there are lots of stories of dogs who've risked their own lives to save their owners, or even just people in danger (same with dolphins). Even my dog seems to have an innate sense of morality in that, for no reason that we can discern, she's never been harmed, if people make motions to hit each other, in play - I don't think she's ever seen a real fight, she'll bark like crazy at them until they stop. As ever, we are part of nature along with our brothers the animals and I believe any difference is only a question of degree. Morality, at base, is about loving and respecting the other person and treating them that way. Good post! xo
Hmm, I disgree. As human beings, we're given our own set of "rules" which govern our concept of right/wrong. They're called emotions. =) shame, guilt, disappointment. Animals are the ones who are conditioned to learn what is right or wrong, but only through discipline and "training."
Perhaps it's this quote that seals the deal for me: "Man is the only animal that blushes, or needs to." (Mark Twain.)
Lulu
This is very deep!
I'm not sure about this, myself. I think that morality can be taught, but I'm not sure that there is not an innate sense of morality in most people. What is acceptable may change from society to society, and so our sense of morality can be altered. I guess I feel it's a little like nature vs. nurture.
Here it is, the post I've been waiting for: Social Contract Theory. Thank you for providing the basic ideas of the theory. The whys and wherefores seem to be missing, so readers might wonder why cultures need to construct a moral code. Furthermore, the topic might eventually lead to the discussion of a world culture and the world moral code that is presently being developed by the UN and NGOs.
Somewhere, I read that you've found yourself very busy with Internet Island. I understand where you're coming from. Please forgive me for failure to be very active on your ring until I get some issues resolved in my own forum. Thanks, Mike
I like how you summed it all up!:goodjob:
Christine
Mike - I greatly enjoyed your take on the question of morality (and thanks for your comments at my site). I generally am in agreement with your approach, but it seems to me that the invention, as it were, of morals by mankind in order to keep the populace in line is, in an evolutionary sense, a necessary element of communal living. Which leads me to think some more about your comments about animals. Some animals live in well-ordered social groups with clearly defined roles (I'm thinking for example of ant colonies). Part of this social structure is a "code of conduct" if you will, governed not by invented rules of right and wrong, but by a biological imperative.
Jeff
I think this is one of the best I have read. I don't agree wiith all of it, we are humans and can reason.
Morals should be something we all have, not everyone does.
True, they are man made to keep things, us in line , but I am glad about that.
Growing up, morasl weren't questioned, we were taught them and we adhered to them.
Today many are questioned.
Even though I did my best to raise my childten morally they have their own ideas, as do we all about morals and morality.
Thanks for the great post, Michael.
Peace and Love:)
RYC: You are so sweet, thanks for that ! I am not so cute lol ..I just act cute,haha, oh well, guess I look 'ok'..I am not for putting my picture up for all to see though. I tell enough with my big mouth without a picture too lol..
Thanks very much:)
I see you as both a talker and a listener, same as me.
no.
morality is natural to humanity, and so is civilization.
Wait, forgot, we adhered to them till the sixities then we , well you know. Some morals kind of went out the window, or we made our own up as we went along.
Is adhered a word?I think it is?
Mike ;I generally find myself in agreement with you.,.but I am finding myself in respectful disagreement with both you ,and it would appear many others about the idea that humans are taught morality ,and that it is strictly a social construct. I have not written a formal essay so I suppose on one level my comment may seem impulsive but this is what I think....I think rules and laws are absolutely culturally mediated..I give you that but . I also think that individuals who can empathise and reason are endowed with the ability to make decisions about right and wrong that are completely the product of their own unique sense of justice. It takes confidence in ones self to question the cultural mores but it happens all the time I think people have an inate sense of right and wrong. Nay be wishful thinking...but I think it anyway....Excellent post though...clearly developed ideas...ryc you are so kind sir....Thanks.
Very interesting post and I agree with almost all of it. I beg to differ with those who have posted that animals don't have morals - some animals like wolves have a familial group and they have rules they all abide by. They aren't the rules humans have developed but they do have a set of behavior their pack abides by. Also, I believe most people are born good and that 99% of bad or immoral behavior is learned or begotten by how the baby/child/teen/adult is treated. Perhaps some people are born bad, but I really doubt it. I'll have to think this through some more, this comment is pretty much off the top of my head. Have a good week - Happy Thanksgiving to all who celebrate it. peace and love abound
Very interesting post. I think of all the different 'morals' over the centuries, how varied they have been. Do you think moral codes differ from country to country? Of course, I think of Sweden, where the morals are more lenient. Does that make them immoral? There really isn't much that separates us from animals. Do the morals change, as the populace grows? ryc: Don't tell me about 80º temps, at least be sympathetic to the cold northerners! I know, bush ad nauseum.
:coolman: Hey mike! You and I are in agreement on this issue - we should start a club! LOL! I was amazed because I wrote my entry before reading yours and I was glad to find that we agree!
Your knowledge overwhelms me. I only have one question.
You say the extinction of mankind is due to the need we feel to "trump" another groups set of morality.
Without a moral code (laws) there would be societal breakdown, we would become animals, which by the nature of things would lead to our own extinction.
Are you saying that either way, we're screwed? That with or without morality it will inevitably lead to the extinction of mankind? If so, does that mean morality is only a pathetic attempt to prolong the lifetime of the species by empowering ourselves over all other species?
I definitley have more questions than answers. Again, great post.
:goodjob:
Hello Mike,
thank you for your kind words regarding my site.
I find myself pondering along the same lines as Steve (mourning2dancing). I'm wondering if you are equating "morality" with religion and/or theology. isn't it possible that such a thing as morality exists outside of any such system? and these various systems are constructed to point us, like a map & compass, toward a virtuous (noble) end? as far as being born with a sense of morality, is it possible that we are, however so slightly? and it merely develops as it is nurtured, like the rest of our bodies? I think we all have a sense of fairness, even as infants. we might not be able to express it, or even understand the consequences of our actions. still, don't we know when we are cheated and lied to, or deprived of our basic needs, even as a babe?
walk in beauty, ciao
~Peter
I just read through this entry and many of your poems,and just want to tell you that you,sir,are a great writer. You are possibly one of the most talented I've seen not just on xanga,but anywhere. May I ask you what your career is?
-Justin
I find myself in complete agreenment with Miashineon's statement: "I also think that individuals who can empathise and reason are endowed with the ability to make decisions about right and wrong that are completely the product of their own unique sense of justice. It takes confidence in ones self to question the cultural mores but it happens all the time I think people have an inate sense of right and wrong. Nay be wishful thinking...but I think it anyway...."
And must also admit to not having the time (sorry Mike) to formulate my own thoughts on the morality/equality conundrum. As a full tme non-traditional college student, stay-at-home dad, and house-husband, things can be pretty hectic around here. But the end of the semester draws near and I'd like to write about morality when I'm not forced.
Miashineon mentioned empathy, I know very few people who actually know the meaning of that word. They seem to get it confused with sympathy. Ho hum.
RYC: Thanks for stopping by Mike. You may address me as "TC" from now on. :sunny:
Hi Mike, You said "Morality does not exist naturally, and only exists because of man's decision to create it" I agree. We teach out children to not steal, lie, etc. Life teaches by result of negative feedback to us adults to not do this or that. Negative feedback comes from the morality of society... and those change over time too. So, yes, it doesnt exist as in being innate within us, at least from my opinion. Great piece Mike, as usual. Thank you for sharing! You have a great day and take care of you and yours. ~Barbi
:fun::fun::fun: wooooooow.dude your a genuis and i love the song.i looked up google for music and found ur site.u rock man.:goodjob:
...2nd attempt.
Morality is what keeps you out of trouble.
.
Might we not have within us though a desire for balance, a desire to agree upon a common reality?
-Barry, the only boy editor
Thought provoking, that's for sure.
Nice post, Mike! I especially liked the phrase, morality is in the eye of the beholder.
Good work. I think, though, that there is a need for us to try and formulate universal laws. Laws that will dictate what is right and wrong for anyone or any country to do. Until we can do that, we won't see an end to the Crusades and Jihads which have been plaguing our world.
-Colin
Hi Mike (It's Kellie-my name) And I thought you were on that list.....
I'll make sure ya are!!
Michael,
I agree that we are not born with morals and learn them. I have found in my life that there are humans who walk a fine line of knowing the difference...those born into poverty and addiction who cannot seem to make the choice to change due to surroundings.
Someone above commented that we have our emotions but I think that although we are born with the basic emotions much of our emotional content is also decided by society and our culture
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