August 27, 2005

  • The “Mike as Sampson”  image used in this entry is a composite originally used for a blog entry titled “The Website Must Be Destroyed”  about dismantling certain portions of  my website, AllThingsMike, when I  ran out of server space. The following essay concerns the latest section of my website to be “dismantled”, the ElectricPoetry Group on the Yahoo service, which I closed down this past Monday.





    Group Therapy Gone Bad




    An essay by Michael F. Nyiri 8/27/05


    In the end, the group had to be killed. Murdered. Massacred. I shall explain in a moment, but first let me tell you as I clicked the small boxes at the end of each “Yahoo Profile” name I cringed as surely as if I were in some nightmare where I was plugging each of my best friends with .45 slugs at close range. When I hit the “Are you sure?” buttons I was cutting off their heads with a sharp and unforgiving machete.


    The group had become a headache. I would grow exceedingly anxious, with palms sweating rivers over my keyboard as I called up the URL again, and my eyes waveringly focused on the latest of the “Angel Poems”, each time I visited the group with my website’s name on it.
    In the end, I gave up the “ownership” of the group to different moderators, and watched as they silently and defeatedly left the group, now knowing what to do. I watched from the sidelines, happy at last that I didn’t have to “comment” on any more Angel poems.


    In the end, the Angel poems were about all that were being posted, and when I received an email from the last exasperated “moderator” I knew the death knell had sounded. I could hear it clearly from the incessent bells in my head when I thought about Christine (not her real Yahoo profile name) and those poems.


    It was the poems that killed the group, Cock Robin. It was those dreaded and horrible Angel poems.


    Let me tell you that writing the above sentences have been a form of therapy for me. “Group Therapy”, if you will. I have written in the essay “The Pariah” about some of the times I have felt particularly bad in “group situations” on the internet. That essay details a particular instance from January when I felt I was being lambasted by a few members because I said one member’s particular works was not artistic. Most of the members of the group were immensely pleased with the comments and responses I would give concerning their poetry. But I can’t really describe the end too well without first giving a “short history” of the beginning. In the beginning, in 2000, the group was created as a haven for poets. I typed my “Group Message” into the Yahoo “club”, “ElectricPoetry”, in February of that year.


    “I have been writing poetry for over thirty-five years, and in 1999 dusted off the old volumes, and am still attempting to post my complete output on the internet. I would like to share my works with others, and hopefully inspire and enlighten. I invite all poets to come read me like a book, and add your own pages to our shared story of experience and inspiration. Your age does not matter. Only your willingness to love and feel love, and to rebound from your deepest depths with words. I love to write, and I love to read. These are two of the sweetest things one of us can share with the other.”


    In 2000, the internet was not as easy to manuever as it is now. The “club format” which later changed to “groups” on the Yahoo server, and which has duplicates on AOL, MSN, and other services, was like a “message board” for like minded individuals to share their thoughts. In my first month online, there were 73 posts, followed by 123 posts the next month. As part of my participation as group owner, I explicated each poem my members posted rather incisively and throroughly. I studied English Lit in college, a long time ago, and have written poetry for most of my life, so commanding a Club dedicated to the art was simple and simply inspiring for me. By August, however, I was a bit tired of the constant activity, and I have other pursuits, so as members, who were involved with other clubs besides mine, faded away, the club became stagnant.


    In 2002, I posted some of my current poetry on the Club boards, but nobody answered. In 2003, Yahoo changed the format to an email group situation, and two of my early members posted messages in order to keep the group online, so it wouldn’t disappear. As my internet interest comes and goes in cycles, I became more interested in interaction among my fellow online poets, and in late 2003 I joined about 6-8 poetry and friendship groups, and rekindled my participation in some of the past groups in which I retained membership.


    One of the most interesting and fulfilling of these groups was called “Short Stories for Daydreamers”, and there are internet correspondents with which I keep in contact who still “talk” about that group. The owner of the group was a writer, from California like me, and the strong point which made this particular group special was the participation of the owner. He wrote short stories, and his group was geared for short story writers, but he also welcomed poets and though he incorrectly told everyone he wasn’t a poet himself, his own stabs at the artform were very eloquent, and he constructed a “family” atmosphere, where one visiting the group felt as if he were transported to a large community “porch” on which all the members communicated with each other. Friendship and camaraderie among the members came first. Incisive critiques and assessments of the written words posted at the group followed quite naturally.


    I joined this group, and found myself joining the others on the virtual porch almost nightly. I began participating in my other groups as well, including a friendship group which had over 200 members, and whose activity could be quite draining at times.


    Suddenly, almost without warning, seemingly only short weeks after spinning  off a “Poetry” group, the owner of “Short Stories for Daydreamers” deleted his group. He posted warnings on both his groups that he was guitting because of time restraints and the fact he had just published a book of his own short stories. He had good reason to close down his groups, but this certainly didn’t placate the members, who felt as if the virtual rug had been pulled out from under them and the porch set afire. Since I was active in groups participation, I “dusted off” the two year old and stagnated “ElectricPoetry Group” and began inviting the members of the SS4D group.


    I posted my first “new” message on the Group message board in March of 2004.


    “This will be really silly if no one shows up. I know all seven will be here shortly. Hello to all of you who have come from the Poetry for Daydreamers site. Welcome. Welcome back if you were (are) receiving email from this long lost forgotten group which was to be my internet island of poetic abandon but that I let die. Welcome. I feel like the innkeeper opening the shutters of the inn after a long winter. A winter that lasted a couple of years. Welcome. Welcome back. Enjoy yourselves, get to know each other better, and post some poetry. I’ll be posting a few as I watch you show up. Yours in poetic dreams, Michael F. Nyiri poet,philosopher,fool”


    The first poem I posted was “Where Jesus Walks” which I had just written. Within a short time, I had over 40 members. The owner of the SS4D group had once told me that this was the perfect amount of members for a Yahoo group. If one has hundreds of members, the “family” aspect is missing, and with less members, the activity quotient is low. Besides the SS4D members, who now had a substitute for their earlier group experience, I invited members of groups to which I belonged that weren’t that active, and I invited poets I knew from browsing the internet in general. By the end of 2004. with nearly 50 members, and 20 or so active at any given time, I found myself as arbitrator of what some had been calling “the best poetry group on Yahoo.” I felt humbled and special. I would read and comment on each poem that was posted on my group, and my comments have always been legendary. Since I became involved with the internet, I treat message board posts, blog comments, and group emails, not to mention emails in general, as “letters.” I always strove to be a “man of letters” when younger, and “comments” and “responses” became my digital equivalent. My responses always began with a salutation, and concluded with my complete signature, including the “poet, philosopher, fool” tag which follows me around like a dedicated pet.


    Different “groups” of poets would come, go, be active, have writer’s block, and come back again. I wouldn’t let anyone “leave”. Every time someone would tear up their digital membership card, I was quick to write a long plea to return, and everyone who left during 2004 came back as a member. There was more involvement and camaraderie than ill feelings among most of the group members, and I was praised by most for being a concerned and fair moderator. In time, running the group became tiring, and even though I didn’t particularly like some of the work presented, I was always honest and forthright in my assessments. I really enjoyed running my “ElectricPoetry Group” even though I was upset sometime to think that nobody in the group really read my ElectricPoetry website, but just read the poems when presented on the Group. In time, I “used up” most of my “best pieces” and quit “constantly posting” poems, and I became more a moderator of other’s work, than a presenter of my own. I was inspired enough with this group to write 58 poems in 2004, more than I had written in what seemed like ages.


    Then I admitted Christine, the “Angelscribe”.


    Everything changed after that mistake.


    Since the moderator of the SS4D group had given me lots of “pointers” about running a group, at which he had been particularly good, I had placed the group on an approval basis, where I as owner had to “approve” membership. This kept out the internet telemarketers and gave me a sense of control. I don’t know where Christine came from, but I approved her, and her first postings seemed innocuous enough. Each group at any given time has what I call a “constant poster”. A person who writes prolifically, and when the other poets might be blocked, can be sure to keep the group active with new material. I myself had been “constant poster” in the beginnng, and two or three folks would take over that title as the months passed, and our “angel scribe” was the last one, and the last straw as well.


    Her “poems” were all themed around her misinterpretation of angelic dogma. Cherubs were children who had died prematurely. Every one who perishes becomes an “angel”. Angels play musical instuments, including electric guitars and accordians, in a “heavenly orchestra”. Her titles were similar to “Monday Angel,” “Thursday Angel”, “December Angel”, “Guardian Angel”, “Angelic Piano”, etc, etc, etc. After about three months of responding to all these “angel” poems, which were not only dreadful to read, but badly written, I sort of snapped, and found myself sweating when “forced” to attend to my own group. I became anxious and nervous, but I read and critiqued each “poem”, and no matter what I wrote concerning the poem at hand, I always received the same reply, “Thanks, I’ll “fix” it.”


    Christine was starting to rile the other members, and I didn’t stop people from leaving this time if they chose. I tried to cajole our angelscribe into leaving, but she wouldn’t have it. She would post the same poem with different titles, and deny that she’d posted before, even when pointed out by more than one exasperated member. I couldn’t delete her membership, either, as I had approved it, and when I would criticize the fact that she was posting far more than she was commenting, she began to comment, even though they were more of the “nice poem” type comments, I couldn’t find a “reason” to kick her out of the group.


    In time, I stopped commenting altogether, and I already had my Xanga blog by this time, so I was pretty well involved in other pursuits, and just didn’t want to deal with the “ElectricPoetry Group.” I wrote emails to everyone then acitve except for Chrisine. I expressed my total exasperation and let members know I wouldn’t delete her membership no matter how much I hated her poetry. Nobody wanted to see the group “die”, and one member had an idea to “take a vote”. If the majority wanted to “kick her off the island” he would do “the dirty work” for me. Needless to say, I felt somewhat conflicted at this turn of events, but decided to let the guy take his vote. I made him moderator, and in a few weeks, he sent emails to all the current active members, of which there were only about 10 at the time, asking them for their “vote”. I believe I was the tiebreaker, and I voted to “keep” her because I wouldn’t have been able to live with my conscience if I had done otherwise.


    In the few months following this turn of events, the poetry from other members slowed to a trickle. I wasn’t involved anymore. I wanted to delete the group, but other members volunteered to become moderators. I blogged about this episode in a News and Notes column here on WhenWordsCollide, with the subject of “asking for help”, something I rarely do in any situation until I have to. I didn’t need to “ask for help”. It was freely offered. I watched the posting count go from over 500 posts a month to less than 100 in a two month period. Last month, as mentioned in the beginning to this entry, two of the moderators left the group. I finally shuttered it last weekend. I wrote an email/post to all members and told them I would delete their memberships and to “gather up all their belongings” before the target date. I received replies from people who had not been active for months thanking me for establishing and running the group in the first place. I almost felt special again, and as previously noted, when placing the “x” in the little “delete membership” boxes of the members, I felt as if I were committing murder most foul.


    Now the angelscribe is somewhere in the heavens of cyberspace, and is not writing her angel poems on ElectricPoetry.


    I couldn’t take the “last step” and delete this group, with my “ElectricPoetry” brand name on it, so I merely deleted the membership, and wrote one last  message “This group is inactive.” In the header info for the group, I wrote “this group is ‘temporarily’ inactive. I might again start it up in the future. Who knows? Right now I am pleased with the readership here on my blog, and simply amazed that I not only retain readers, but seem to attract new ones weekly. I have an “ElectricPoetry Blogring” and hereby announce to any Xanga poets that I’d like you to join this blogring, which might contain the future membership of the “ElectricPoetry Group”.

    We only have 13 members in the blogring, and I just noticed I have to welcome a new member to the ring just now.


    In the end, the group had to be killed, but the murderer, while certainly not innocent, has, I think, been redeemed.

Comments (22)

  • Life, it seems, has kept me away from my Xanga world for much of the last few months. I am only know trying to wander in to read the sites that I most enjoy. What a wonderful time to wander back in to yours. I do not write poetry, as you know from being on my site, but if this ring is open to those of us who write very, very, short bursts of words I would love to join.

    I will await your reply.

    Peace to you, my friend.

    ~Tammy

  • Fascinating post, Mike.  I’m somewhat familiar with your experience as far as the SS4DD group (heh heh), of course, and would note a couple of things also.  The Yahoo groups are a unique format that seems to guarantee them a useful life of about 12-18 months maximum.  I don’t even know why that is.  It doesn’t matter if they’re big or small.  Beyond that time, they tend to be overrun by blithering maniacs, which was the case with the SS4DD, or just go stale, as happened with another of my groups.  I suspect the same holds true with MSN groups, Lycos groups, etc.  There’s a fluidity to the whole internet population that seems to make it inevitable. 

    Guess we might have to compare the phenomenon to magazines, radio shows or newspaper columnists.  Of course, there’s money and advertising involved on those, which complicates a comparison.  In the world of writing and the interchanges we enjoy, here, perhaps the philosophy of the snake oil salesman is best–go where the crowds are and be ready to move on to the next town.

  • you did the right thing, Michael.  I wondered what it felt like for you to delete the members.  I’m amazed at the effect that one alleged poet had on such a tight group.  It really did become painful.  Oh well, I was happy to see you left the group up just in case you decide to start it up again someday.  I had an unfortunate experience at work where a new person started and someone mentioned to her that I am a poet.  She started emailing me links and telling me about how she’s being “published” (she’s paying some scam-house appoximately $900 to publish her book).  Then, I read her stuff and well, let’s put it this way….after the unfortunate EP incident, I wanted to shoot myself in the head.  Yes, I have my very own angelscribe at work….actually, I think it’s worse.  I had warned her about people asking for money from her to publish her stuff and told her that no reputable publisher does that.  Did she listen? No.  Sound familiar? They are out there, everywhere. Oh, the irony. 

  • Mike, you certainly may call me Bill. Have not been trying to hide it, in fact, I bet that a year or so ago you got and e-mail from me with my name on it but maybe not. Will be back to read about group therapy later. By the way, a favorite topic of mine.

  • So you finally did it.  (nods)  It was for the best. 

  • Wow – I know hat was hard but had to be done… so, even our online friendships and families can be tainted or ruined by the “haters”.

    I like you Mike – you are kind and sincere! I don’t write poetry but I sure enjoy reading it!

    Pam

  • Hi Mike,
     
    I am sad to see that Electric Poetry is inactive but am very happy you were able to clean house by taking this action.  From your description, I feel very glad and fortunate that I was able to participate in the group when it was in its prime and everyone was collectively happy.  You helped me so much it is actually hard to describe.  Not only did you help me improve my writing but you also raised my standards quite considerably while giving me a greater appreciation for poetry as an art and communication form.  For a time, until the Angelscribe arrived, it really was an online family for me and I was always anxious to logon and see what was up.  The people that contributed where quite diverse and the personal stuff that was shared along with the poetry really made it feel like we all knew each other.  You, of course, always made sure that people worked hard to improve and enhance their writing skills, no matter what skill level they were at and that always seemed to keep things well focused on poetry and writing and kept the “other” stuff to a manageable minimum with just enough to keep things friendly and for all of us to get to know each other.  You recounting of the events and situations towards the end is quite accurate and I can really understand and feel how hard it was for you to take the actions you did.
     
    I know that recently I have not written much, posted even less and only rarely commented even though I stop by your site a few times a week just to see what is going on.  After my own personal experience with Electric Poetry and all the “hate mail” I got as a result, I just withdrew from poetry and the e-world, almost completely, and really have not yet found my way back.  In the last week or two I have tried a bit harder to maintain relationships with a few people, you included, and have been trying to comment more but I still get the heebee jeebees every time I log into Xanga or looked at what was going on at Electric Poetry.  Maybe I’m just not quite all back yet.  Anyway, as you know, I have basically given up trying to write anything since that incident a few months ago and have focused in another direction for the time being.  Any attempts that I have made towards writing in the last few weeks has not worked out very well because my heart and mind is just not in it.
     
    Whether you like it or not, I still look at you as a mentor and role model for my writing and as someone I admire as a person.  So I will not give up on writing and fully intend to get back to it.  I also don’t want to let our friendship die through my neglect so, as I already stated, I am trying to put a greater effort into commenting.  I have enjoyed the various things you have written recently – especially this post which really tugged at my heart and prompted this monster of a comment.  I also appreciate your comments and interest in my activities in the last few months.  I will have to work on posting more on my own Xanga site since I want to make sure I don’t miss out on any of your “legendary” comments!!!  Just teasing!!!
     
    Have a great day and I hope everything is going well for you,
     
    Andreas
    (Just another nut in search of a wrench)
     

  • I can understand how hard this must have been for you. When I was reading this, I thought of Terry. He had always said he had no compassion, yet when you were troubled or in a bad place, he was there for you. You remind me of him in many ways. Bless you, my dear friend.

    Love

    Bev

  • Mike,

    I’m sure this was something you saw was necessary anyways, and I somewhat felt this coming from when you posted about “Christine” a while back.  Things change and grow – it is inevitable, and with Xanga you have that community feel and also post your wonderful poems as well.

    But, even though you feel redeemed … I do think you were rather harsh on yourself.  I’m certain that the people you built close friendships with through your group will still stay in contact with you. 

    As for me, pardon my recent lack of “prescence” around here lately … but boy … do I have things to tell you!  Hopefully we will get together soon!

    Love & Friendship,
    Liz

  • Maintaining Yahoo groups and crit groups is tough. I belong to one that has 13 members and we get along wonderfully. We’re very blunt w/ one another, but for the cricism and suggestions we give we also point out the good things about a rough piece of prose too. I certainly understand where you’re coming from. A flamewar is the worst thing that can happen to a group.

    Faith

  • It’s amazing how one person can spoil a whole group; but, then again, isn’t that the story of the one bad apple in the barrel? I’ve left so many groups, to great protest sometimes, due to one person who might be on a Christian fundamentalist rampage against my belief that world population can be dealt with by giving women their reproductive rights, for instance. Sometimes all it takes is a single person, even if the group as a whole is good. When that happens, and you’re the owner/moderator it’s a hard call. You didn’t want to be cruel or actively oust her, but she ended up dismantling the whole group. While I realize that you have turned to Xanga, it’s unfortunate that one person got to do this at all. They shouldn’t have had that much power… Even if it sounds as if you were quite happy to let the group go since it required such a time commitment… xo

  • i’ve always felt that writing workshops or online groups of writers are a little too insular for their own good … i find the mix of people i run across on xanga to be more interesting as they’re not all there trying to promote or improve their artistic efforts and they have other things on their minds

  • I had a group based on music , it was hard as you say to comment and keep the peace. These grown ups fighting over who is a better singer, guitarist,  ect. I always got emails saying ,so and so is bothering me , kick so and so out , yadda yadda yadda . I finally got tired of babysetting and deleted the group. It was sort of sad , but for the best. So seems to be the same for you.

    I like the Electric Poetry Blog . I joined and write some poems, but I read others poems and decided not to post mine as they seem childish in comparison. So I just type whatever spins in my head and an occasional poem. Badly written :lol: Oh well, we all can’t be poets.

    I am with you on the Angel theme based poems , over and over ,enough already!

    I appreciate your thought out comments you leave me and everyone . As for my talking as I write, yes pretty much the same , tho I flow with the conversation and never try to take over .

    Love can come to us at any age, so dont be so hasty, mate!

    I feel as if I have the same beleives as you about Jesus. I once went to a Pentecostal Church with relatives. Good music, but sometimes it was frightening for me to hear people speak in tongues and make dire predictions as , something is going to happen to someone here tonight , I was always sure I was that someone.

    Thanks again and I will tell my daughter to read your Cycle of Abuse, Many kids she comments to are cutters. I feel for them .Take care and have a great day :)

    Peace and Love :)

    You do a very good job with The Electric Poetry Blogring.

  • Ah, I see the jukebox now. Still that was the first and only day I’ve ever heard music here. {yes, my speakers are plugged in and turned on, lol}.

    Thanks for the compliment on my blog. I’ve had a lot of good vibes there since shutting down my old one. I’ve always been lucky too. People seem drawn to me for some reason and I often find them sending me nice graphics as gifts. If you ever create something fantasy/magic related or for writing, lemme see it.

    Hugs,

    Faith

  • I believe if someone is going to post ANYTHING, they should expect and accept all comments and criticisms. Isn’t that why this is public? As for shutting down the “Electric Poetry Group” on yahoo, it sounds like it had to be done. One bad apple sure does spoil everything.

    I enjoyed the history and links on this entry. One thing I’m finding out as I read others blogs is that being new, I feel as if I’ve missed the beginning of a story! Thanks for giving us a background. :goodjob:

    I just joined your “Electric Poetry Blogring”. I don’t write poetry anymore, not since I was a teen, but I definitely love to read it. And you seem to attract many interesting writers to your sites.

    Take care,

    Suzanne

  • Oh well. It was for the best. I myself have never been good at poetry forums, poetry groups, etc. I sign up and never return. I’m sure I’ve been part of quite a few of them that never panned out into anything. I’d rather submit the poetry to magazines then forums. Your’s seemed like one that could really stick around. You had a following there of some fantastic people.

    When angel poems begin to creep in on a constant basis, it does get to be too much.

    Great essay Mike!

    lisa

  • It is so hard to say goodbye, isn’t it?  As I read this heartbreaking essay, I’m reminded of my failed stewardship of what I named the “Universal Word Source Task Force.”  I brought together about 30 of whom I thought were like-minded Scrabble experts for the purpose of pruning both the American and British Scrabble word lists, in hopes that the result would be a word list that could be endorsed by players everywhere.  Alas, no one understood the real purpose of the task force.  Everyone drew a line in the sand and stood fast.  None of them ever heard of the words sacrifice or compromise.  I finally had to give up on my dream of ever getting the divergent worlds of English-language Scrabble players to unite.

  • :wave: Hi Micheal,
    Thanks so much for visiting my site and for leaving such a indepth message.
    I truly enjoyed reading your comments. I have subscribed to your site,
    and I hope we can keep in touch. I love poetry so I am going to have to read all your poems!
    Thanks for being so frank and honest about your beliefs.

    I also like to express myself in poetry. I don’t know what type I write, I just write.
    It gives me a satisfaction and joy to write and helps me to better understand how God is working in my life. Here is my old homepage and it has some of my writings:
    http://free.hostdepartment.com/c/crownofheart/

    I am trying to create an updated one, but it might take another week to have it going well:
    http://www.crown.bobos.ca/
    This is my father’s ministry page. He works with radio over the satellite and Internet.
    http://www.summitofhermon.org/

    Shalom from Jerusalem,

    Laura :sunny:

  • I wish I could leave you a long and thought out comment, my dear boy, but I’m afraid all I can say is that I laughed my ass off.

  • Good Sunday Mike,

    Loved this post my friend…”all good intentions gone awry,” eh? Just chalk this debacle up to lessons learned. In my running years I have found that everything happens for a reason, and not to dwell too much or too long on what might have been. Your fine efforts came from the sincerest part of you which is the most you could do. Shine it on, and move on. Don’t you know that God puts these obstacles in our path to make us stronger; “what doesn’t break us makes us stronger.” Amen! You shall go on and you shall prevail. Your intentions are too honorable not to.

    When you get a chance, hop on over to my blog to see my reply to you regarding my latest post. Hang on my friend and keep looking for that light at the end of the tunnel. For someone like you, it will always be there.

    blessings and hugs,
    paulygrl   

  • :sunny::sunny::sunny::sunny:Always great reading here! Love the song on the juke box!!!!!!  ~What another trip down memory lane!!~ I love the have a really good cry and I mean a sobbing waterworks cry over a good movie, book or whatever.  Oh, the other movie was The English Patient. Those two movies are a sure thing for me to cry ..oh the tragic irony of life. I love the line from Out of Africa-’ when the gods want to punish you they give you what you want!’ In other words becareful what you wish for you just might get it.LOL! I’m so glad for writers like yourself who put into words what most of us can’t. :sunny::sunny::sunny::sunny:

  • As much as it pains me to type these words…

    It is my fault that Christine joined EP.

    I am one of those who called EP “the best poetry group on the web”.  Ironically (tragically?), I called it that in my own writing groups.  Even more ironic was the fact that the malignant Angelscribe was in one of my groups.  See, I had been dealing with her for years already, agonizing over the same questions and frustrations you described in this essay.  Sadly, I didn’t foresee her taking my comment about being in the “best poetry group on the web” (God, why did I mention the group by name???) and dashing off immediately to join it.  You didn’t know anything about her–but I think you knew she was from one of my groups so she came with almost a ”stamp of approval”.  Irony can be cruel, no?

    Gulp.  It’s my fault. 

    I cried when the doors of Poetry4DayDreamers were closed.  I cried the day I finally gave up and left EP.  I’m not much of a crier, so the few tears I have left will be poured out over the fact that I (albeit unwittingly) caused the demise of…yeah…the best poetry group on the web.

Post a Comment

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

Categories